Curse

Evilsod · Jun 18, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Yeah that was the other reason i used it... i was trying out Critical Agility and found that the rate of criticals was so incredibly bad, even against level 24s with 16 Marksmanship thanks to the lower refire. It still ran out frequently... it really needs someone with Go for the Eyes in the team, whatever profession they are (since heros like to wand).

XvArchonvX · Jun 18, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

And yes TNTF isn't effected by Expertise so it still costs 15e, but i managed to use it reasonably often, half the time i was waiting on energy, but with a constant 25% IAS zealous spear been thrown could usually regen that quite quickly, but that was only in the battles where i figured we really needed TNTF to be up as much as possible like bad lures or large mobs + bosses.

After trying the build I found that I really wouldn't ever run THTF on a ranger again. The 15 energy cost really limits it's use. A Paragon primary can spam it full time without running into any energy problems. A paragon primary can also use Crit Agility with GFTE and run spear attacks at a higher att level, this dealing more damage with the spear as well. I'm not sure that the overall dps is higher since a paragon wouldn't have a pet, but the use of TNTF is definately more efficient on a Para primary by far.

Evilsod · Jun 18, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Easier to use chaining it with another ally. If your only using it once every 20 seconds you never run out of energy.

Course it would obviously be better on a Paragon... but that involves finding a Paragon with Rank10 Sunspear. Plus i want chests on my Ranger

pingu666 · Jun 18, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

fallback is pretty sweet for running, if your taking heros on your chest runs

Amy Awien · Jun 19, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

I see that GWWiki mentions copies of the factions-skills for both Luxon and Kurzick titles. Could that mean one could have two Triple Shots on their bar? How useful would that be?

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Well that was short lived...

Critical Agility is useless for anyone but an Assassin.
TNTF is useless for anyone but a Paragon.

Never Rampage Alone is now completely useless.
Triple Shot still sucks.

XvArchonvX · Jun 19, 2007, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Well that was short lived...

Critical Agility is useless for anyone but an Assassin.
TNTF is useless for anyone but a Paragon.

Never Rampage Alone is now completely useless.
Triple Shot still sucks.

Answer me this, did rangers actually NEED a buff for PvE? Because as far as I've seen, it's been Paragons and Assassins that needed a buff to get into groups.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 19, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Critical Agility is useless for anyone but an Assassin.
TNTF is useless for anyone but a Paragon.

Never Rampage Alone is now completely useless.
Triple Shot still sucks.

The new skills are designed to buff there primary classes taht was the whole point. Assassin need increased armour for HM and general use because thats where they suffer and why they have problems getting pugs. Paragons were designed to Buff the party but due to PvP Balance that was changed, they needed the restoration of that. etc. etc. The skills are suited to what each profession needed.

Never rampage alone as far as i know hasnt been touched so u cant say its now useless, its still the same. It was to make up for the weakening of Rampage as one due to PvP changes.

Triple shot is a great skill on its own, combine it with a preperation or such and it becomes an amazing skill.

@ Amy, Yep u can gain and use both skills, but it requires for u to have both tier 1 titles or above.

Amy Awien · Jun 19, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Ah, thanks for the info.

Adding a couple of uber PvE skills seems not the best way to increase their popularity, I mean, if these classes need an overall buff it would make more sense to look at their entire skill-set. Now they have to rely on grind to become popular in PuG's.

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Answer me this, did rangers actually NEED a buff for PvE? Because as far as I've seen, it's been Paragons and Assassins that needed a buff to get into groups.

Critical Agility will make Assassins wanted in PvE groups? Lmao. Like hell that'll happen. A 33% IAS is what made Assassins so annoyingly overpowered in PvP. In PvE it doesn't make a huge difference. 25 Armour? Yeah... because the secret to finding a group for an assassin was bringing a personal Watch Yourself. Critical Agility is just gonna make every assassin think he can tank... until he gets by alot of armour ignoring damage and gets his Critical Agility shattered.

This is exactly what Paragons needed... yeah. They *needed* everyone to demand they bring TNTF and play Team Godmode... If Anets big solution for saving Paragons is turning them into mobile godmode cookie cutters then they suceeded. I said it before and i'll say it again. Anet haven't saved Paragons. They just killed them. Its either cookie cutter godmode builds or bust.

I may be very much mistaken... but aside from BHA and Barrage teams Rangers haven't been all that much wanted in PvE either. Sure people are a bit more allowing when it comes to Rangers over Paragons/Assassins, but they're still not overly desired like an Elementalist or Necromancer.
I was actually under the impression that these PvE skills might've given us something beneficial that we've been lacking all this time. An IAS that could be kept up without draining your energy/attributes. They got halfway there... they gave us an IAS that is almost unusable. Or maybe they could've given us a decent bow attack damage wise in comparison to the others... we got Triple Shot. I guess Triple Shot would be an ideal replacement for Dual Shot in a Ranger spike team for PvP... but what use is it in PvE. Without some serious overbuffing from Glass Arrows, Brutal Weapon, FW, Winno or Orders this skill sucks more than Dual Shot.

Other professions got something they could use, abuse or just disregard. We got 2 useless skills. Whether you think Rangers need a buff or not is upto you. I think we should've at least been given some useful skills.

Lourens · Jun 19, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Why does never Rampage Alone suck???
25 sec 25 faster att speed and +3 health regen woot only 12 energy (13 exp)

XvArchonvX · Jun 19, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Critical Agility will make Assassins wanted in PvE groups? Lmao. Like hell that'll happen.

Where did you read this? I certainly didn't say it. I did imply that this may lessen assassin hate, or at least make them more effective as they play the game (with or without pugs). I don't, however, believe this is some sort of godsend skill for the PvE assassins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

This is exactly what Paragons needed... yeah. They *needed* everyone to demand they bring TNTF and play Team Godmode... If Anets big solution for saving Paragons is turning them into mobile godmode cookie cutters then they suceeded. I said it before and i'll say it again. Anet haven't saved Paragons. They just killed them. Its either cookie cutter godmode builds or bust.

Since when did bringing one skill in your bar make your build 'cookie cutter'? Elementalists are generally loved by PvEers, but they have to run a SF build that is almost the exact same no matter where you go. A Paragon has several options that they could play since their build wouldn't revolve around an elite, but rather a sunspear skill. If you have a grudge against 'cookie cutter' builds, then I think you are playing the wrong game, because if you take a look around you, most professions are most efficient when they run a cookie cutter build, especially if they are played in a high end area such as an elite mission or DoA.

Rangers haven't been the most sought after class, but when was the last time you were in a pug and someone said, 'no don't take a ranger, rangers suck'. The only time I ever see rangers not accepted into general pugs (i.e. pugs not looking for a very particular build like Deep or DoA) was when they either needed a certain profession and didn't have enough slots, or simply had enough rangers as it is.

Personally, I don't think the ranger skills are that bad. You can use them without completely nerfing your bar or leave them behind without having a nerfed bar. RAA works pretty well with a R/P pack hunter variant and Triple Shot is a decent skill for a Glass Arrows build. Besides, PvE outside of strict elite missions isn't exactly a place where you MUST have a perfect skill bar no matter what for any kind of success like PvP. Because of this, people are allowed to test builds and play around with skills to either learn more about the game or just have fun.

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Answer me this, did rangers actually NEED a buff for PvE? Because as far as I've seen, it's been Paragons and Assassins that needed a buff to get into groups.

Curiously enough i read it in this post. Needed, as in, has recieved that buff. I still don't see why Critical Agility needed to be nerfed to an Assassin only skill.

1 skill? Well it starts with TNTF... and since theres no way to keep up the TNTF spam, you need to bring Go for the Eyes. So thats 2. Then since your probably going to be alongside Searing Flames elementalists in goes They're on Fire, so thats 3. Might want to take along Focused Anger too. If your doing that you might aswell throw in Save Yourselves. Oh then you'll be needing your IAS, in goes Agressive Refrain (although what Spear/Adren build doesn't use that...).

Rangers got general acceptance the moment Barrage/Pet took hold of the Tombs and when Power of my Ranger brought Ranger Spike to PvP. The simple fact is Barrage is boring to play. For a long time if you weren't using Barrage then you were a crappy Ranger, thankfully that seems to have stopped.

Never Rampage Alone sucks because it requires 3 slots to make use of 1 skill. If it didn't need the pet, it would be a good skill, even if it is expensive. But, it doesn't, so it sucks.
Triple Shot sucks. These skills are suppose to be useful in general. Triple Shot isn't even that great if your using Glass Arrows. You either make your entire build round this skill or its just not worth taking.

The only PvE skill i'm using now is Necrosis. Apply Poison? Prep Shot? 75 damage for practically nothing every 2 seconds? These ranger skills are pathetic. Even TNTF has more flexibility than this. These skills should be an ADDITION to a build. Necrosis is an addition. Intensity *was* an addition. Both Triple Shot and NRA need a build around it to make it work. The limitations on these skills is pathetic in comparison to the others. I mean wow, requiring a Mesmer hex!? Zomg that must be REALLY hard to do!

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Curiously enough i read it in this post. Needed, as in, has recieved that buff. I still don't see why Critical Agility needed to be nerfed to an Assassin only skill.

I said they needed a buff to get into pugs, not that these skills were enough to actually achieve that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

1 skill? Well it starts with TNTF... and since theres no way to keep up the TNTF spam, you need to bring Go for the Eyes. So thats 2. Then since your probably going to be alongside Searing Flames elementalists in goes They're on Fire, so thats 3. Might want to take along Focused Anger too. If your doing that you might aswell throw in Save Yourselves. Oh then you'll be needing your IAS, in goes Agressive Refrain (although what Spear/Adren build doesn't use that...).

TNTF doesn't require Focused Anger to run, even with They're on Fire. Soldier's Fury does just fine or Aggresive Refrain do enough on their own to keep GftE spammed. Basically you have 3 skills that are dedicated to Leadership and Command. Anyways, this is getting off topic and I'll agree to disagree with you here.

Getting back on track, I don't know what you really want out of these skills. They work in some builds but not all, so what? They are basically skills that work in some builds, even if they aren't uber enough to be staples in all. What exactly did A-net need to do to make you happy with these skills?

Oh, and if you were wondering why Crit Agility go nerfed, then you probably never used it with a Dervish using Avatar of Lyssa and Eternal Aura. That combo was basically an uber lawnmower that plowed through anything in PvE like butter.

Evilsod · Jun 20, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

How exactly is that all that different from an Avatar of Lyssa dervish using a 25 second Heart of Fury, Eternal Aura and Conviction? I already know that Avatar of Lyssa can steamroll through enemies like lava through ice. Your not seriously telling me that is actually a valid reason. The 1 i mentioned leaves your secondary open for a start. TNTF was just too easy, it gave practically everyone the ability of a party wide 35% damage reduction almost constantly that can't be removed. Your telling me a 33% IAS Enchantment that renews itself to the top of the stack is comparable to that?

I wanted a skill that would've been a good choice without making my build revolve around it. I don't have to make my build revolve around Necrosis... i just take a decent method of applying a condition and use it when i need.

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

How exactly is that all that different from an Avatar of Lyssa dervish using a 25 second Heart of Fury, Eternal Aura and Conviction?

Because you had downtime before the update. With Eternal Aura and Crit Agility, a Derv could be on constant rampage mode. Dervishes are really powerful with an IAS, which is why their IAS skills suffer from downtime between their acting time and recharge time. Crit agility not only avoided downtime, but was almost a cast since it is only a 5 energy enchantment that renewed itself and only really needed to be cast before battle. Since Dervishes tend to have a good variety of enchants, they could also cover it much better than most other classes could as well. Because it was a cheaper skill, it also allowed for liberal spamming of Chilling Victory, which added to damage output.

I understand how you could want a skill that was more versatile, but I still don't see how it's such a big deal that the PvE skills don't fit in every bar. In the right build, the skills are good, which imo doesn't make the skill bad.

KazeMitsui · Jun 20, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

the ranger pve only skills suck period
that and no one wants rangers they rather have an eleeeeeeee or a necro and some monks and no need for warrs also minions are your tanks or whatever pve is mehhhhhh

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by KazeMitsui

the ranger pve only skills suck period
that and no one wants rangers they rather have an eleeeeeeee or a necro and some monks and no need for warrs also minions are your tanks or whatever pve is mehhhhhh

Check the Guru post that had a poll on favorite classes (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...hp?t=10147811). Rangers are in second. They might not be one of the 4 classes most people want for a generic pug, but they aren't really discriminated by them much either. Even if Rangers aren't an 'uber' class, they aren't really considered an underpowered class in PvE. If you think they are, then compare them to Assassins, who've been hated since people first saw them used in Vizunah Square (and maybe earlier) as well as Paragons who have seen almost every update bring them nerfs just because they were considered overpowered in PvP.

'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' I believe is the phrase that applies here.

Evilsod · Jun 20, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Because you had downtime before the update. With Eternal Aura and Crit Agility, a Derv could be on constant rampage mode. Dervishes are really powerful with an IAS, which is why their IAS skills suffer from downtime between their acting time and recharge time. Crit agility not only avoided downtime, but was almost a cast since it is only a 5 energy enchantment that renewed itself and only really needed to be cast before battle. Since Dervishes tend to have a good variety of enchants, they could also cover it much better than most other classes could as well. Because it was a cheaper skill, it also allowed for liberal spamming of Chilling Victory, which added to damage output.

I understand how you could want a skill that was more versatile, but I still don't see how it's such a big deal that the PvE skills don't fit in every bar. In the right build, the skills are good, which imo doesn't make the skill bad.

Yes because that whole 5 seconds downtime is really hindering the Dervish... The Dervish can't cover an enchantment that renews itself to the top of the pile. Sorry but i'm not buying it that Critical Agility was even remotely overpowered enough to warrent that nerf.

Don't fit on every bar is still not what i said... skills that have a place in a variety of bars is what i said. NRA/Triple Shot don't have a variety of bars.

Edit: Misread. Just because Rangers are the second favourite class doesn't really mean much. Warriors are the top purely because lots of people play Warrior as there first class.

As for them not been underpowered in PvE. Maybe not, but its starting to become so. Paragon got its 'buff'. Assassins got there Critical Agility. Mesmers got 1 useless and 1 totally overpowered skill. Rangers got 2 pathetic skills that people don't even seem to bother with. Rangers are meant for interrupting and conditioning rather than good DPS. Hard Mode buffs of reduced cast time are completely screwing that over if you don't bring BHA. Conditions do barely a thing with that much overbuffed healing. I'm starting to lose focus on what the Rangers niche was in PvE. Other than firing off the odd BHA onto key targets i'm starting to feel like a spare wheel in some teams.

XvArchonvX · Jun 20, 2007, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Yes because that whole 5 seconds downtime is really hindering the Dervish... The Dervish can't cover an enchantment that renews itself to the top of the pile. Sorry but i'm not buying it that Critical Agility was even remotely overpowered enough to warrent that nerf.

Don't fit on every bar is still not what i said... skills that have a place in a variety of bars is what i said. NRA/Triple Shot don't have a variety of bars.

Edit: Misread. Just because Rangers are the second favourite class doesn't really mean much. Warriors are the top purely because lots of people play Warrior as there first class.

As for them not been underpowered in PvE. Maybe not, but its starting to become so. Paragon got its 'buff'. Assassins got there Critical Agility. Mesmers got 1 useless and 1 totally overpowered skill. Rangers got 2 pathetic skills that people don't even seem to bother with. Rangers are meant for interrupting and conditioning rather than good DPS. Hard Mode buffs of reduced cast time are completely screwing that over if you don't bring BHA. Conditions do barely a thing with that much overbuffed healing. I'm starting to lose focus on what the Rangers niche was in PvE. Other than firing off the odd BHA onto key targets i'm starting to feel like a spare wheel in some teams.

A 5 second downtime alone isn't the only reason. With Eternal Aura, not only is there no downtime for IAS, but also no downtime for Avatars. Basically, there was no downtime for godmode on dervishes. Also, Dervishes recast enchantments frequently, so it was a lot easier for a derv to prevent enchantments than other classes.

Basically it comes down to this: I believe A-net made the PvE skills mostly to help out classes that needed help in PvE. When first released, many skills helped out classes that didn't need the boost as much as or more so than the classes that did (for example TNTF on a MM instead of bringing a Paragon). I still don't believe that Rangers needed an overall buff for PvE. The skills that we did get are basically meant to work nicely with some builds, but not be something so strong that most bars would be weaker without it.

As for your complaint about rangers in HM, I thought you were having success with Smoke Trap? If so, why do you feel like you need to run BHA just to justify your slot in a group? Personally, I've found that the versatility for a ranger still works just fine in most PvE circumstances. For example, Kryta missions in HM became much easier when I equipped Judge's Insight with Barrage. Choking Gas + Practiced Stance has also helped out in other areas where big groups of casters appear and 1 BHA isn't enough.

In the PvE world that consists largely of mass mobs of enemies, Rangers can still survive since they have plenty of skills to deal with AoE or skill spam, whereas Assassins and Mesmers that shine when targetting one enemy fall behind.